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  1. In Which Media Makes Us #ForeverAlone

    #662302013-11-16 00:30:41 *Momimochi said:

    I just found this to be so painfully true that I gotta share this.
    Can we all just agree on how true this is.

    Because we're all #4everalone. Even if we have friends. Even though you believe you have friends, it's all a lie.

    Seriously, though, this honestly addresses a pretty important self-destructive behaviour that we all have. So, gotta spread that awareness.

  2. #662372013-11-16 03:28:25--Jack-- said:

    It's sad when I have to text or social network with a significant other in order to "become closer to them" than IRL....

    I will be cutting the cord on them one day, and locking them in detox.

  3. #662452013-11-16 04:59:59 *johan_5179 said:

    The idea that I get from this video is that because we are immersed into connecting continuously with a large number of people simultaneously, we are losing time for our IRL friends and for our selves. And that our presentation of a constructed self is so damaging and unreal to normal human nature, that our social fabric is being damaged because of it.

    Well, while I do agree that the premise of the video makes a certain amount of sense, the conscious or unconscious presentation of a constructed self, or 'Self-Fashioning' as we call it, is an idea that pre-dates modern society.

    The idea was first identified in the 12-13th century when certain roles or actions became the norm and were upheld as the ideal for people to imitate. While this in itself does not mean that people will change themselves completely, it does mean that they will try to present themselves as possessing certain characteristics. The change itself is not actual, and even its own nature is not set in stone, slave as it is to changing social equations.

    Everything about human society is 'fake', even ideologies such as Socialism and Capitalism inspire discourses which seek to define them as good when history shows us that the choice is one between two evils. Marx is credited as saying that he did not know what Marxism was since the ideology had gone so many changes in his very lifetime, affected by people who interpreted it. Look at our folk tales, look at our legends of kings and knights and how we turn them into demi-gods. Our aspirations are true and legitimate, our inspirations are mostly not.

    Affecting change to hide the true nature is not the seed of loneliness and social networks cannot be blamed for either phenomena, I believe. We have a need to communicate more with people, and coming into 'modernity' has not given birth to it. Petrarch wanted to increase his circle in the 14th century, Goethe's Faust wanted to do it even before. Our need to be connected to many people is not predicated upon our usage of social networks, they are simply an extension of our existing desires to be heard far and wide.

    because let's kickstart a discussion ^_^

  4. #662512013-11-16 07:01:35Rune said:

    Hmm... I could write papers about this subject but let's just focus on what the video claims.

    First of all, while I agree about the whole monkey experiments and stuff in the beginning, I think the video suffers from the 'Kony video' problem in which you identify a problem, and then proceeds to go "HERE'S WHY AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG" assumptions on why loneliness is happening. In this case, the video creator didn't identify giving arms to the Ugandan government as the solution, but rather "HURR DURR, IT'S TECHNOLOGY! GET RID OF IT!"

    However, that doesn't mean his arguments are invalid...

    But how about this then, do you think people from before the Internet isn't as lonely as you are now?


    You see, while it's easy to think that "If we just put our computer, facebook, cellphones down and go outside, everything will be SOOO MUCH BETTER!", this is not true.

    CASE 1:This thread


    Experiment: Tech Writer, Paul Miller abstained from Internet for a year

    Result: MISERABLE

    Honestly, most of the things I'd want to say here, I've already said in that thread. The conclusion is simple: The real problem is that we tend to think too highly of ourselves, technology or no technology. We think that we are the center of the universe and people exist only for us.

    The Internet however, only emphasizes this problem because then you know that people just won't take shit from anybody and even more so with anonymity. Because of this, we feel lonely, not because we don't have friends, not because it's all fake, but because people don't do what you say! Hell, even Kim Jong-Il sings a song about this in Team America: World Police

    And Kim Jong-Il probably didn't even have online friends. Instead he had fake friends in his underlings and yes men he surrounded himself with. He was surrounded by many IRL people, yet he was lonely!

    (I'm talking about Kim Jong-Il in the movie btw, Idk about IRL)

    And that's CASE 2!

    CASE 2: Hey, how about them IRL people in your life?


    Do you have IRL friends? Course you do, right? No? Well, chances are, you do have IRL friends. If not, then at least you have somebody you like, right? No? How about people you tolerate? People you admire? OK, how about people you hate?

    The point I'm trying to make here is that guy's point about conversation and connection is not exactly as clear cut. Here's the thing: intimacy IRL is actually not as simple as it sounds. You do get to edit, and delete in a real conversation and we certainly can control what we're gonna say, just like online. However, like online, you can't control people's responses!

    I mean, sure it's easy to forget that people online are real people... like e.g. sometimes I think I don't treat everybody here as real people... but at the same time, do you think the people IRL is as much a person as you do? Try the homeless on the street for example; or maybe the cashier in . Do you, ever think of them as equal?

    Heck, even in conversations, this still plays a part. If you're an actor, or a director, you know that words that you say, doesn't mean as much as the intention behind it. This is called 'the subtext' and yes, it is what is lost online.

    So, there are three purposes for the subtext: 'Vying for a higher status', 'Vying for a lower status', or 'Asking for more information'. They all however, only have one goal behind them: 'Trying to get the other person to do something for you'. Now then, I can't really explain why this is why it is because there's really no science behind this except that it's been used in acting for almost 100 years and it's called 'Stanislavsky method'.

    And it works! And almost every single actors and directors would love to hate this method! Ever heard of 'method acting'? This is what it is!

    Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, you DO get to edit, delete, and control what you're gonna say, or what you want to be. It's just that we do it all the time, we never realize this unless you are being put in a 'fake' situation like acting for example. And, if you happen to commit wrong in this whole process, you are committing a social faux pas aka, "Dude, did you really just say that?".

    Now, let's get into CASE 3!

    CASE 3: The World Before The Internet (Might Not Be As Wonderful As You Think)


    Let's go back to the video about the three gratifications the Internet has given us:

    1. We can put our attention whenever we wanted it to be
    2. That we will always be heard
    3. That we will never have to be alone


    Cool catchphrase but do you know why we even had the original quote of "I think, therefore I am"?

    It was invented back in the 17th century and it basically tried to philosophically answer the simple question, "Who am I?"

    Now, drawing back from the three gratifications the video laid out, they do have one thing in common: 'we', or in a more individual case, 'I'.

    1. I want to put my attention where I want them
    2. I want to be heard
    3. I don't want to be alone

    And all of these, again, enforces the point that we just want things to go our way. Technology, as he claimed, gives us these gratifications. However by doing so, we can't escape from being alone and because of this, we can only be lonely...

    Now, while I agree that this might be the case, I think it's rather unjustified to think that this is Technology's problem and not ours.

    And that's why we need to go back in time to when the Internet didn't exist, or when it wasn't as widespread as it is now.

    Do you remember your childhood?


    Alright, to be fair, the minimum age for this forum is 13 years old so maybe this discounts some people here. But if you happened to be alive in the 1990's, did you feel less alone back then?

    Try to think of the situations when you were actually with people; with your families, your friends, et al. as well as without them. Did you feel less alone in those situations?

    No, those weren't really rhetorical questions. I really want to know how alone you felt back before the Internet days. To be honest, I myself believe that although I did have real conversations and intimacy with people back then, I felt almost as lonely as I am now.

    But I ask myself, "How could this be?". Seriously though, I didn't just 'have friends' back then, I was not only making them, they actually made me their friends as well; something that is rather unthinkable today. In fact, they all insisted we be friends and nobody else to be left out, even the creepiest kid.

    Obviously, there is a bit of a cultural differences in play here when it comes to friend-making and so on. But the thing is, even as I literally had millions of conversations and like, tons of friends, whom I can still call and meet anytime I wanted to, I still felt as lonely back then as I am now. Back then, even as I was having fun with friends, going to theme parks and stuff, chatting, having fun, I never really felt less lonely than I am now.

    The thing is, I never really felt CONNECTIONS to any of them

    I mean, sure, we had fun, we conversed, we even shared photos and stuff by showing folks photos from the Internet that we downloaded from home because lolno3G and texting was $$$ expensive. Yet, I never felt that any of them meant anything, even when I was included, even when people cared, even when people did what I wanted them to do.

    And... sigh... again... I think I still draw the same conclusion from the very first case, from 6 months ago...

    But sometimes, we tend to forget. We tend to forget that the other people on the Internet are also real people. We then start to think we're "antisocial" and "lonely" even when we spend many of our time interacting with people online.

    This notion deludes us from our real problem: that we think too highly of ourselves. We think that we are the center of the universe and other people only exist for us. While we might think this might make you stronger like in the movies; life really isn't the movies; and this only brings us down and down into the dumps. Also, we tend to think to much about our future and planning of our lives. Many of us think about "the arc" of our lives which doesn't make any sense! Life keeps going, there's no climax nor anticlimax; just us, keep on living.

    So, instead of worrying to "go out more", we should really think about what we really really want to do! We are young here! You're not old unless you're 50+ and hell, even Colonel Sanders started the whole KFC thing when he was 60! To put it simply, it's never too early nor too late to start doing what you want!

    Now excuse me while I go out and jump out of this airplane!

    Really, the problem is plain and simple individualism... I am (We are?) so delusional of my(our?)selves that when I (We?) talk to people, I feel that I (We?) can control how they'd act or react. Alright, now that I look at that sentence again, I think it's dumb and I think I should just talk to my therapist about how this all works... And that is my advice to all y'all #foreveralone people:


    That is all...

  5. #662522013-11-16 09:19:57Kirn said:

    @Rune seriously, though, go see a therapist and stop bothering us with your problems. We both know you are overdue for a good session.

    Experiment: Tech Writer, Paul Miller abstained from Internet for a year

    This is crap. I said it then, I will say it again, the whole idea of that was dumb and it only makes internet seem more important than it really is. That guy is an idiot, and that thread should be forgotten.

    (I'm talking about Kim Jong-Il in the movie btw, Idk about IRL)

    Why the fuck are you even bringing something that isn't even real into what you make look like a serious argument?

    Good point about editing real conversations and relationships, I'll grant you that. But do you know how hard it is, compared to the fucking internet? And I don't mean just technical means. I mean results and consequences - those things you don't really have to think about on the internet. If your lie is successful, or if you manipulate people well, you can get a lot out of life. If you fail, you can fuck your life up beyond any recognition - something you can't really do on the internet or while acting.

    The thing is, I never really felt CONNECTIONS to any of them

    And this is the core of the thing. You structure the argument around your own personal experience and feelings and convictions. Which makes you biased and not very objective at all and hence - not a provider of a good argument. Plus, we both know that you feel alone because you're a fuck-up, so this all should go into a totally differently themed thread.

    So get off the high horse and take some behavior-changing pills. Those are good for you.

    Now, with that out of the way. Concerning the video, it does show a general problem, if you would call it that. Personally, I don't think I can use my own opinion and experience on this matter because 1) I don't really have friends and 2) it doesn't bother me. So yeah, being anti-social person, I interact with people, but my use of both real-life connections and internet opportunities is purely goal-oriented. Quite honestly, CL is the most useless place for me at this is where I mostly communicate with you fuckers just to communicate with you fuckers.

    Anyways, what I tend to notice is that internet and virtual interactions are creeping up on real life. Let me give you an example of what I mean exactly.
    About 5 years ago I knew a girl... I think she was about 22 at the time or something. Now, without going into too much details (and there were a lot of stories about that one), she had a boyfriend who proposed to her. After doing that, that guy changed his status on the site that is a sort of analog of Fb for Russian internet. Changed it to something like 'soon to be married' or some such crap. Then the guy changed his mind. And he changed the status. And that's it, that's all he did after changing his mind. So, this girl checks the page of her one true fucking love, she sees the status changed, she goes hysterical. And I do mean hysterical, her parents later had to sedate her. Yes, really. So, she goes hysterical, but she doesn't even call the guy. What does she do? Yes, you guessed it, she leaves the message on his fucking page.

    Is this normal? No it isn't. And that's just a major example. Right now I can walk through the street full of people and listen to what they talk about. And young people mostly talk about things that are internet-related. You see a group of guys walking? Chances are good they are talking about some MMO they all play (usually WoT crap). You see a group of girls? They are likely discussing some changes on the internet page of one of their friends or some video someone posted. Fuck, I myself impressed girls with my fucking internet achievements. I will repeat that. I fucked real girls after making them impressed with how great MMO gamer I am. Is this normal? No, I don't think it is.

    Anyways... I guess, for me it just feels kinda silly that we are so integrated into information age that virtual things are gaining real substance and are of the same value as real things. Or maybe that virtual things are replacing real ones. Well, no surprise there, really, humans bullshitted themselves for ages, so that's just the next logical step. Still, doesn't feel right.

    And to end this, my personal way of dealing with this issue: do not mix internet interactions with real life interactions. That's it.
    When I meet people in real life, I take their phone number, I may get their e-mail, because it is convenient, but that's it. I don't visit the sites they visit, I don't support their internet talk and if they try to invite me to some Fb-like sites, I shame them openly and explain, thoroughly, how bad those sites are.
    When I meet people on the internet, I interact with them within the borders of the internet place I met them in. I don't expand on that. That's why I don't have you fuckers on Skype btw. And I do not meet those people in real life. Well, there were some exceptions to that, but whenever I meet someone from the internet in real life, the conversations are, again, limited to specific interaction we have on the fucking internet. I don't ask about their lives, I don't take their phones and we don't get to become buddies in real life.
    This is how I do.

    Quite honestly, it makes the world that much easier to sort out.