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  1. Welcome back to the Cold War. You were missed.


    #720462014-03-26 15:42:27 *Kirn said:

    Okay, this was a misleading thread title. Personally, it is my firm belief that the cold war was still going high and strong after the death of USSR. It's just that US got the upper hand and continued to push, trying to drive Russia into oblivion by any means while strengthening its own position. Business as usual, you may say, and what was going on in my country was just the latest addition to that business.

    I don't know if any of you do that, but lately I check the currency site of my country every day. Obviously, many people in here do that now, comparing hrivna to dollar, because that value is actively shifting. But here's the interesting thing. We had out currency at the lowest at February 28th, which was, in case you are one of those who gives no fucks about my country, right after a large amount of people was killed in what was orchestrated to be the peak of the protests. However, after a few days, there was a sudden rise - that's when Russia was pressured, and Ukrainian position was presented to be firm. And if you would care to look - right now, with parts of the country being left for grabs and us facing financial threats from both Russia ans EU sides... well, we are being fucked as I write this. Right now we already fell lower than we had on the 28th. And it happened in a more gradual way, which means that we won't have a quick recovery from that. If we would ever.

    This has very little to do with the actual theme of this thread. However, it was my intention to stress a very simple point - we are at the stage when wars are being waged not only on battlefields of even on television news, but on the stock market. Remember the opium wars? What British did there is they went to war because they didn't get the trade they wanted. These days? These days if you go to war, you can lose the trade you got.

    You know how Russia is big producer of energy? Which they sell to the rest of the world? I didn't find any good article on those events, but you can google this. When Russia was pressured in UN summit, the stocks of Russian energy companies hit the bottom. What do people do in those occasions? They obviously sell their stocks. And that means that someone buys those. And here's the thing - Russia bought those. Effectively, while public opinion raged on, they made it so they are the ones receiving their own gas profits. Not US, not EU, just them. It is said, Russia made 20 billion in three days and gave the west a giant middle finger.

    But that's not all, and here I will give you the link to the article.

    Putin Has Nuclear Economic Bomb

    What this effectively means is that Russia right now can respond to western threats by, pretty much, taking the US dollar out of the energy trade market. Now, I have no fucking idea if that is truly possible like that, or how long would it take, or how much the world economy would get fucked in the process. Hell, I guess I could make a call and ask a good stock market specialist after I finish writing this thread. But the point is this - the events in my goddamn country presented the world with a new battlefield. Where Russia has at least even chances to win.

    Oh, and I say battlefield, because if things will go like that - it will be a war. World War 3. Not nuclear, mind you. We are way past the nuclear age and into the information age. This will be an economical war. And if you think that war where they kill people is harsh, you've never been in serious business relationships.

    Me? I am fucking laughing. And also thinking about maybe moving back to Russia in my future years.

    Oh, and here's the video from the article too.

  2. #720472014-03-26 16:05:29Rinneko said:

    The idea of an economic war is a fascinating one. I personally never thought that a war could be waged purely on a economic basis, and thus did not place much focus on this aspect of the Ukranian crisis. Not a military war, political war, but an economic war? I guess this means I need to start looking at the currency exchange and stock market. :/

  3. #720502014-03-26 16:53:25 *Taro_Tanako said:

    I've always thought that economic warfare was the next big thing really. And yes, it will be much much more ugly and unclear. Imagine the fallout, lower standards of living, lack of energy supplies, less of an voice in foreign trade and politics, not to mention the associated deaths. I dunno if this is what people refer to as "soft power".

    It's interesting stuff...

  4. #720562014-03-26 18:51:25 *Ultrahaze said:

    We are currently learning about the Cold War in my history class, and of the supplemental texts given they all suggest that the cold war ended after the collapse of the Soviet empire. I for one, do agree with you that although tensions were supposedly "thawed" during the years of Khrushchev or insert any leader that I've forgotten there is still so much room to say that things really haven't changed. or at least nothing got resolved. I really do enjoy the contents of this post, In World War II we'd seen aerial/naval/nuclear warfare but I never considered an economic warfare in our future. Thanks for sharing this I'll definitely look more into this!

  5. #720582014-03-26 21:19:52Gwynn said:
    It's the age of mass communication, and we're only getting better at over exposing every aspect of life. War is grusome, and unsightly; it's damn near impossible to not expose that fact. Our world is now so interconnected (currency, travel, trade, etc.) it's no wonder that economic and information wars are here.

    The people of the world can agree that it's bad to poison and burn the Earth with massive weaponry (though the option must always exist). We've seen what the attitude of "not my country, not my problem," goes: a spectrum from polluted water, to mass killings. It's becoming more important to pay attention to the political battefield, rather than one with guns. This presents some problems, a major one in the USA: it's not entertaining.

    Watching political forums on television will rarely win out to football or movies, let's be honest. It's becoming harder, and harder to effect change as an individual. In order to change things, you need people to choose to follow politics. Then there's the people effected by these political wars, usually people that lose money and resources.

    Look at the Ukraine, money losing value and trade slowing down. This chain of events will lead to disease, starvation, and a loss of sovereignty (no where near as flashy as mortar fire). Edward Snowden embaressed the USA, and much of the EU, it's why he's now an enemy of the state. In essence, he made the political war entertaining. Pay attention to what's happening out there, and don't be afraid to ask questions, including "What can I do about this?"


    related media: House of Cards, Hotel Rwanda, Thank You for Smoking
  6. #720622014-03-26 22:26:51hellstorm901 said:

    The way I look at Russia and its Economic "leverage" over the West is that this is simply a poker face, in reality that leverage is a double edged sword that would hurt Russia quite possibly more than it would the West.

    Allow me to explain. The West is a customer while Russia is a store. If a store does not sell its products then it makes a loss whereas the customer loses nothing as it can go browsing elsewhere. I've heard a lot recent about Russian gas exports to Europe being too needed that Europe can't do anything to pressure Russia but in reality Europe only uses Russia as a gas provider not out of necessity but out of simplicity. Russian gas pipelines are easier to get gas from A to B without hassle but if need be I do think Europe could very easily just turn off the pipe on their end and start producing their own gas or importing it from some other country and Russia would have a hard time covering the economic gap without building another pipeline going elsewhere or using expensive freighters to move it, the latter of course would mean Russian gas exports would be substantially lower than the rate their pipeline could move.

    In the end we find that Russia stands to lose quite a lot if Europe walked away from Russia and Europe on the other hand will actually gain from it as in order to meet their resources needs they'll end up producing their own. Take for example Fracking, Russia seems to be opposed to new European Union legislation which omitted Fracking regulation thereby allowing the Fracking industry in Europe to prosper without Bureaucratic Red tape, why would Russia oppose something like this? Well that's because it's the first step towards ending Russian imports to Europe and in my opinion that scares Russia.

    Vladimir Putins economic empire walks a very fine line and is being propped up by poker face and a "Who Dares Wins" attitude. Russia makes dare after dare towards the world and so far the world caves in because Putin's poker face is too great but in reality Russias cards are very poor and if called on it I think we might see the collapse of this economic empire overnight.

    In a single day following a threat from the Weest to impose sanctions on Russia we saw a quick drop in the value of the Ruble, now while the Ruble may have recovered quickly it proves the point, if the West calls Russia out on its poker face Russia suffers.

  7. #720762014-03-27 09:39:42Kirn said:

    The West is a customer while Russia is a store. If a store does not sell its products then it makes a loss whereas the customer loses nothing as it can go browsing elsewhere.

    This is where I tell you that your analogy sucks and that you should watch the video. You got pretty much everything wrong in that short quote. First of all, how you do compare a major exporter of energy with a store? What, you think there's really a lot of them around? And switching from one to the next would be as easy as driving to another supermarket?

    But you even missed the actual point. What those guys talk about - if you bothered to listen - is not stopping the sales. They talk about Russia actually selling energy cheaper and more convenient by accepting payments in their client's currency and by cutting out the useless middleman - US dollar. Now tell me, who in their right mind would turn away from such deal? What, Europe? Just because "russiaevil"? I really don't think so.

    And apparently you never read what I write, but I will repeat - Europe has serious energy needs. That's why they want Ukraine - not because we are "oppressed by horrible dictator put in power by russiaevilputinevil", but because they want our fertile land to grow rapeseed to make rapeseed oil to ease some of the energy problems. Oh, and you people now call it canola, because you can't handle the word "rape", but that's exactly what this seed does - it rapes the fuck out of the land, so that you can't grow anything well on it for about 3 years after that. That's why EU doesn't want to grow it on their land. They want to rapeseed my country, if you forgive me for making a little pun there.

    Try to understand - we are talking about economy and business here. In business noone gives a fuck about politics, about "russiaevilputinevil" yells by people like you. All that matters are supply, demand, trade routes and profit. If what those people in the video - and they don't like Putin just as much as any proper American - tell about is true and possible, nobody would give a fuck if Putin would start publicly raping puppies on the Red Square.

  8. #720772014-03-27 10:17:04 *Ecstasy said:

    nobody would give a fuck if Putin would start publicly raping puppies on the Red Square.

    ah come on, he does that every day. they put it in that evening show on the main TV channel which is supposed to put the kids to sleep.

    I've heard a lot recent about Russian gas exports to Europe being too needed that Europe can't do anything to pressure Russia but in reality Europe only uses Russia as a gas provider not out of necessity but out of simplicity.

    Oh yes, providing gas is real simple and not demanding at all. You just fart it out of thin air, no natural resources needed.

  9. #720782014-03-27 10:43:43Kirn said:

    they put it in that evening show on the main TV channel which is supposed to put the kids to sleep.

    Well, damn. So that's what they have instead of 'Good night, kids!' now...

  10. #720792014-03-27 11:38:36DarkChaplain said:

    Germany pretty much struggles in building up renewable energy sources, and even after Fukushima, where the anti-nuclear demonstrations were at a peak and our government decided to shut down the nuclear plants early, they gave in to lobby and scaremongering of "if we shut them down early, we'll not be able to keep up with our demands, and our industry will go down the drain with poverty on the rise".

    Do you really think, hellstorm, that Europe, as fractured as it is on so many things, with its years and years of drawing out decisions on an EU-wide level, and implementing laws, would be able to quickly set up their own power plants within the next five minutes of russia potentially shutting us out or raising the prices significantly? Don't make me laugh. We find so many reasons NOT to invest in cleaner energy that doesn't poison our soils, one of them being the "free market", it WOULD have a devastating effect on Europe. While we may be able to cope in the long term and reorganize our own needs, the short term loss would be significant.

    Europe is an inflexible beast. The amount of countries in the Union is too high for anything close to quick solutions. Fuck, especially with recent events involving Greece and co you should have noticed that the EU is not nearly as stable or unified as one might hope.

    But then again, I already heard hellstorm's opinions about renewable energy on chat a few weeks ago - "why bother, let's build space colonies instead, mother earth is fucked anyway".

  11. #728372014-04-09 20:49:16hellstorm901 said:

    @DarkChaplain "But then again, I already heard hellstorm's opinions about renewable energy on chat a few weeks ago - "why bother, let's build space colonies instead, mother earth is fucked anyway".

    A report issued recent suggested that no amount of policy changing and tree hugging will ever undo the damage done to the Earth, when you think on that my standpoint gains a fuck load of credibility more than the "Lets tax big oil firms more to push green incentives we've just proved will do jack shit all to resolve the problem."

    I will always, fucking ALWAYS advocate the Space industry over everything else whether it be Hippie Green bullshit or Religion because only the Space industry and pursuits there yields results

    Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand but seeing as I also believe if "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind so lets all be blind together" I will attack anyone who attacks me.

  12. #728832014-04-10 06:13:06 *Kirn said:

    @Gwynn well, I don't really put much faith in polls, you know. Too easy to fuck up. But this made me laugh. Also, I had an interesting thought. At first I though that knowing exact location would be like a direct correlation with wanting to fight Russians there or not. I mean, sure, Ukraine is close to Russia, Russians are probably strong there, so let's not fight them there - that's what I imagined.
    But then I figured, it can be the other thing. Knowing where Ukraine is can be a sign of educated person, and educated person would know that military intervention is far from the best thing to do in any situation. Likewise, people who cared enough to find out where we are after this fuckery started, they could also take time to really find out about things, so their choice against fighting could just as well be a reasonable choice based on them following the current situation...
    Well, anyways, I didn't really put that much thought into it, but it was interesting idea to play around with. I still would say that polls are unreliable.
    (Also, when I tell people on chat where I am, I always tell them to find it on the map )))

    Now to @hellstorm901, because what you write is pretty much some sort of retard now.

    First of all. Are you actually SERIOUSLY saying 'the world is fucked, let's go to space'? Because that's already the part where I tell you to get your head out of your ass and stop living in anime world. Maybe you didn't notice, but at this stage we can't even manage the 'let's leave the Earth on a giant arc ship' scenario, I am not even talking about any sophisticated ones. But you went even further...

    I will always, fucking ALWAYS advocate the Space industry over everything else whether it be Hippie Green bullshit or Religion because only the Space industry and pursuits there yields results

    So, as an alternative to any working energy source, you propose space industry, which at this point is decades away from getting ANY solution to any of human problems. And that non-solution, which is, by the way, not even proper industry, you put against... tree-hugging, which is a culture and not an industry and... religion, which is a form of organized belief and not an industry.
    Um... I have to ask you seriously. Are you fucking dumb?

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

    "An eye for an eye is not a call for revenge, it is an argument for fairness. In the time of the Bible, it was standard to take a life in exchange for an eye. But the Bible said no, the punishment should fit the crime. Only eye for an eye, nothing more. It is not vindictive, it is mitigatory." - (c) George Carlin

    Congratulations, you fail on three counts in one post.

  13. #729162014-04-10 15:26:36hellstorm901 said:

    @Kirn

    "Are you actually SERIOUSLY saying 'the world is fucked, let's go to space'?" No what I actually said was that a report issued recently said the world was fucked and there's nothing that can be done to prevent it, the report made clear even if we went back a few tech ages we still wouldn't be able to resolve the damage, I simply proposed the one viable solution.

    At what point did I ever say "giant arc ship?" please fucking quote me. What I actually said in my talks with DC in the past were that the colonisation of space is essential for Human survival and if we funded space agencies more wouldn't be impossible to pull off, the US readying test trials for a Electromagnetic Railgun in 2016 which can easily lead the way to a Mass Driver for space. History has shown military tech leads to more tech for the species as a whole, modern Rockets were based on the ideas proposed by Germany for the Vengeance "Flying Bomb" program. Seeing as we've built the ISS with cobbled together modules and we've got a rover to Mars when both things in the past were just Sci-Fi flick ideas.

    Once again your trying to portray me as an idiot without fucking cause, I never said I don't advocate alternate energy, I actually am all for Solar Energy as that has much potential and I think Wind Energy is also beneficial because I live in Britain I've seen Wind power in action and for my country at least it can work.

    I weep for our fucking species that people oppose Space development which yields so much potential and I hope that somewhere down the line in the future if such "Anime world" were to be the likes of such people would be left on the Earth to rot and die.

  14. #729182014-04-10 16:13:47Kirn said:

    I simply proposed the one viable solution.

    No you didn't. You talk about it like it's a viable solution. But it isn't now. See, you can't go to space now. But the planet, in theory, can do all that other stuff you frown upon. So, let's see here... to pick between something that can be done, but won't help, or something that is impossible?... Tough pick. By any chance, do you have a viable working plan of going into space which you may oh so gracefully propose?

    At what point did I ever say "giant arc ship?"

    That I picked as the most simple 'escape the planet' plan out there. But please, feel free to share your version of how it can be done.

    which can easily lead the way to a Mass Driver for space

    Links please. And please, let it be the proper links with talks of costs and proper development times. No linking Mass Effect wiki btw.

    military tech leads to more tech for the species as a whole

    I kinda wanted to point this out 'cause this is totally irrelevant to this topic and even to the topic of the first thread.

    Once again your trying to portray me as an idiot

    You do all the work for me, you know...

    I actually am all for Solar Energy as that has much potential and I think Wind Energy is also beneficial because I live in Britain

    I will always, fucking ALWAYS advocate the Space industry over everything else whether it be Hippie Green bullshit

    ...spewing inconsistencies like that.

    I weep for our fucking species that people oppose Space development which yields so much potential and I hope that somewhere down the line in the future if such "Anime world" were to be the likes of such people would be left on the Earth to rot and die.

    And now it's my turn to say that I am not even against the space programs. I am just being realistic about their use at this point of time. And while the idea of leaving others behind to rot sounds nice and may help you sleep better in this world that seems to be so harsh on you... chances are, you won't be alive to ever see that option becoming available.

    That, or you won't have the money, sucker.

  15. #729232014-04-10 16:57:35hellstorm901 said:
    @Kirn "Links please. And please, let it be the proper links with talks of costs and proper development times. No linking Mass Effect wiki btw."

    http://www.astronautix.com/articles/abroject.htm

    Gerald Bull a Canadian Engineer of Artillery had the idea that a "Supergun" could be used to economically put a satellite, and with that potentially in the future other things, into space in a way that was economical. Eventually he found his way into employment with Saddam Hussein where he began work on "Project Babylon," a long ranged artillery piece that Saddam probably had envisioned to be used to attack countries like Israel, but another idea is that continuing his work this giant gun would have been used to fire a shell into space to destroy enemy satellites, not a far stretch from just firing something, like a satellite into space.

    Unfortunately he was assassinated by "somebody" thought to be Israel after he refused to back down from threats. Even though he is dead now his work showed that Mass Drivers were not impossible and could be built if the finances were there for further study. Which going off the USN's work with Electromagnetic Railguns it appears that the research is being done and when they are done playing around with Warships armed with these things the Space Industry will be given its day to tinker around with them and see what they can make from them.

    Sorry to disappoint but it appears I answered your question without linking Mass Effect.