thank you guys so much, but uh..... so how about the penpal?whose willing to be my penpal? ._.
@TokoyamiSenshi U INSPIRED ME!!!
That method works for memorization and very, very basic understanding of the grammatical structure of language. Good for starters, but wouldn't work in the long run.
To be totally multilingual, the most important thing that has to be learned is the oral skills. This constitutes accents, pronunciation, and also on how to compensate for all the limitation of one's mouth.
In reality, people mimic sounds other people make. The younger they are, the better they are in mimicking them. As they grow older, they start building their own style of speaking which is specific to them, especially to their facial anatomy. This is of course, what we call accents.
Despite the fact that every human being is capable of speaking every language in the world, the reality is that the physical limitations will hinder them to sound completely 'native'. However, due to mimicry and language evolution in general, these limitations are constantly being worked around and we are now developing distinct accents that accommodate these physical limitation.
The problem though, comes from the very basic understanding itself. Language, at its core is oral and writings are used to express the sounds people make on paper. There's a reason why there are thousands of languages but only a few hundreds of scripts ; writing is a recent invention in the history of language and therefore the mastery of those are, symbolically speaking, 'supplementary'. These are not important. Or it's better said, *You can totally be fluent without understanding on how to write. Though of course you'd be illiterate.**
With the advent of the Internet, it's really difficult to see this because we mainly communicate through text on the Internet. But, as it stands, as it has always been, the true language is oral and so a mastery of oral is more important than the mastery of letters.
In conclusion, before going on a crusade to read as much Japanese as you could, make sure that your pronunciation of Japanese is correct. I understand that the OP is Indonesian and Indonesian is very close in pronunciation to the Japanese in terms of the Latin alphabet/Romaji pronunciation. However, due to the physical differences between everyone on Earth, what might sound similar might not be certainly be the right one and So, the Ultimate Verdict:
Learn How To Speak Japanese Before Learning on How To Read Japanese
That is all. Now fire the counter-arguments >:|
P.S.: There are lots of things that I omit here such as how having a good pronunciation will really help tackle the grammatical problems and also the domino effect of understanding certain parts of a language (this one is more specific to the language so it's a bit more complicated), so yeah, ask questions :)
P.P.S: Language learning is a complicated process so there really isn't an 'easy' way or a 'foolproof' method. However, the general consensus is, natural languages originate as oral traditions so learning the oral part is considered more important than the writing part.
P.P.P.S.: This DOESN'T MEAN that you shouldn't learn Kanji. THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE. This is simply a theory on the language learning process.
@eterno: There's really not much you can do about learning kanji save for learning them. The best you can do is be smart about how you remember them.
I have no counter arguments, I agree completely. Reading books won't help your speaking. It may build up your vocabulary and grammar to the point where you can be native on 2chan(tho it would take time through reading by itself), but you could still be pronouncing it all wrong and unable to speak on the go.
It's important to keep the balance, not to cut the language into chunks you 'need' to learn one by one. I think anime is a good pronounciation teacher. As long as you remember it's an anime and people are overreacting most of the time. In fact, anything native people listen to is a good data source. It's only a matter of whether your brain can mine and process the raw data acquired.
Actually there's one thing I disagree with. You said learning a language is a complicated process. I don't really think so. It's as complicated as you make it for yourself because deep down, it's natural. Your brain does it whether you like it or not.
@meddie: I'm glad, but world is not as pretty :) Read eterno's post as well. But you can skip the discouraging parts if you find any ^^
Well, it depends really. I mean for me, learning a language isn't complicated because, like what my mom says, I know the 'key'. Just like how for her, business isn't complicated because she knows the 'key'.
Same thing for everything else really. Once you know the 'key', it's going to be far less complicated. Compare it to lockpicking and just using the key. Thankfully, we are programmed to learn these 'keys' whilst computers have to go the lockpicking way (which is why 'Google Translate' is so derp).
But yeah, Kanji is mostly memorization but it's just the attitude of "gah, I can't read kanji, use kana please" is the problem. This is, what I call, 'learning to lockpick' instead of 'making/finding' the key. And the attitude of 'I got more important things to learn' is more of trying to kick the door open and is even worse than lockpicking because it's like trying to find a cannon to blow the door open :p
So instead, I just propose to learn the language the natural way: by learning to sound Japanese first. I mean everyone starts this way; they might not be awesome in grammar or writing yet (like all the toddlers in the world) but even the toddlers get the words sound like the language; even when their accent is 'horrible'.
So yeah, complicated, for the uninitiated anyway. It's just that while some things might make sense and simple to you, it might not be that way for someone else. I think it's a logical fallacy of some sort... well, maybe...
@eterno: It's not a logical fallacy, it's a byproduct of the way humans learn, well, anything. Yeah, I dislike those 'I have better things to do' and 'kana plz kay?' attitudes too, but people like to have good impressions of themselves so diving into a teritory you're unfamiliar with and admitting you don't know many things takes some courage.
I started by learning to pronounce too. My native language pronounciation didn't take too much adjustment though, but I don't think that's an excuse. It took a lot of adjusting for English and I still managed somehow(note: my accent is probably weird because I don't really speak it in daily life that often, but I'm quite sure it's not wrong).
Google translate is an attempt to make a computer learn the way humans do. For a computer, it does well. There is one problem with computers though, that is, they like to generalize(this is also problem with people, but on a different level, lol). Computers tend to create rules when trying to translate languages(which is completely understandable), but that leads to, as I like to call it, the justice system syndrome. As in, the rules tend to work approximately, but suck on details.
@eterno @TokoyamiSenshi i've had this kind of argument with a friends before , and yeah i really think that in order to learn a language , speaking comes first. master how to speak , and in no time u'll master the writing too. actually i've been in doubt whether my point of view is correct or not , but with @eterno 's explanation , it started to make sense. and it's really hard to keep myself motivated , and i relied on Anki for that purpose.
P.S - it's really possible to learn japanese to fluency in just 18 months! :D
@meddie: Yes, if you're willing to do everything you do in Japanese for the next 18 months. Also, define fluency :)
@TokoyamiSenshi being able to write and read and speak and listen i guess?? xD nahhhhh it's actually a quote from a japanese-learning site's founder. he said that he manage to do it , so i think why couldn't i? but of course i know myself very well , 18 months is absurd =..="
@meddie: Being able to write and read what? Being able to talk about what? There's more than that to fluency. When I started learning Japanese, I said I'll be happy once I'm able to read 源氏物語（げんじものがたり） in it's original form. So that's my fluency, and I'm still far from it. If I defined fluency as being able to lead a normal daily life in Japan, I'd be fluent now. Ignoring the fact that I'm unable to lead a normal daily life anywhere.
The point, if you're happy with being able to talk to the clerk at a grocery store or talk to your friends about the latest show on the tv, that's one type of fluency. If you want to study economics or quantum mechanics in Japan, that's another type of fluency. Each one has it's perks, and none are easy to obtain, but some certainly take less time to reach than others.
@TokoyamiSenshi yess i guess it can be said that being able to practice a language in general form is fluency. at least for daily usage. of course , it would be a different thing when it comes to academical terms. i guess i would be happy if i could converse in daily normal conversation with friends , and being able to express myself freely in japanese.
that being said , im jelly of you lol. how long do u take to have this kind of lead-a-normal-daily-life-in-japan fluency? im pretty ashamed of myself tbh , it's really hard to keep yourself motivated T.T
Hmm... fluency... It's a weird word because I thought I was fluent in English. Then I realized that understanding grammar, a huge vocabulary, impeccable pronunciation, and thinking in English all the time doesn't make me fluent.
I think one of the most ignored aspect of language is the culture. I realized that you can't really talk to a native speaker correctly if you don't understand this because really, what separates me from 'stereotypical __________ person' to a real English speaker is whether or not I know their culture (American, British, Australian, etc.). This is why it's important to choose a dialect OR create a distinct one that doesn't completely destroy the fundamentals (Warning! Extremely difficult! Don't be conceited! Even I had to settle on American! Specifically, Californian!)
It's pretty bothering too. I use 'god' and 'jesus' in my speech even though I was never a Christian. Before, I didn't even mention God at all but as soon as I have to talk in English on a regular basis, I start using 'God' and 'Jesus' because fuck, them Christians say that all the time!
@eterno: Yes, yes! I can't help but use all the unexpected expressions in daily conversations in English and even though my usage of grammar is at native level, native speakers figure me out right away.
@meddie: It took me 2 years for what you'd describe as normal daily life fluency. Though I don't really feel like that's enough. It's my 3rd year of studying and I estimate it will take me about 3 years more before I start feeling good about my Japanese.
But that's not to be taken as demotivational. Even with your native language, you'll be learning new things as long as you live. Languages evolve, they're just information exchange protocols. As the information you wish to exchange changes, so does the language you use.
that being said , im going to put aside writing/reading and focus oral instead from now on. gonna go all romanized from now ! xD
Focus on reading/writing the same time you focus on oral.
Pronunciation wise, I generally go on nicovideo and watch some of the lives that the users hold. These users are usually Japanese and that might help as it is listening to a native talk the way they would generally talk to their friends.
One problem with this is that different users come from different regions so you might end up picking up a variety of dialects.
errrr i didnt really mean all that. that's just absurd , what the hell am i thinking that time =..=
.... /didnt read all of the posts/
fuck you eteron
fuck up and go rape yourself eterne