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murr Kholodkb is amazing. All you need to know.
Ethereal joined on Mar 4th, 2012, since that has made 191 posts that are still accessible today, 6 of which are threads. Helping shape the community, Ethereal has given 601 upvotes, and was last online on May 5th, 2013.
As the night grows, and my body weary with it, I am going to leave my two cents at what I have already stated and questioned. This conversation, although interesting, is becoming rather a bore and frustrating, at least for me, as I can only take so much ignorance. Seeing as we both see each other as ignorant, it is already obvious this conversation is going to go no where and that you may also possibly be going irritable (though I think you are more so enjoying it rather than being irritable, though I do suppose anyone can put on a facade) If you wish to keep it going, I suppose we can humor each other, in which case I will be replying another time may it be tomorrow, or in a few days, or in a few weeks. I do thank you for this discussion and hope it continues to grow on both sides.
My way of thinking is the rather similar to yours. You said we came from apes, birds came from lizards, etc etc. It all comes down to "What did THAT come from?" And in the end, you have to have an answer. Out of every possibility that has graced this earth is that of a divine entity.
If it has not been around forever, that would just further by own idea that something had to have created it. Nothing comes from nothing, unless it is a divine power beyond our understanding. Even then it does not come from nothing, it is just beyond our imagination. Also, to correct you anyway, I remember hearing the latest theory about the universe by scientists is that is indeed a forever on going thing. In a sense. From my knowledge of the current understanding, the universe expands expands expands then implodes and expands expands expands again. It stretches, blows up, and starts all over again. An endless cycle. In which case, I see no reason it could be around for forever.
If the idea that God or a divine creature could be the possible cause to what did create the universe, then the choice between science or God to me is obvious. I have no read an awfully much of The Bible, which as I stated earlier, is to which I am ashamed. However, from what I have read, there are many things The Bible foretells they have already come true. Things it said will never come true, haven't, and things it says will (that people that far back could not possibly begin to imagine or think of), also have.
@PigBoss I can not and will not take it as the slightest fact, for a reason you yourself have stated. I see those who believe in it as ignorant, just as you see those who do not as ignorant. You earlier stated how there are thoughts of Rene Descartes's you choose not believe because there are parts that are flawed. I take that to mean if a single thing is flawed you reject the idea altogether? Correct me if I am misunderstanding. And in just I am replying to, you stated that science is not perfect and has flaws. (Unless being imperfect is not the same as being flawed).
Also, another part of why I will not take evolution as even the slightest of facts is this. You would probably tell me dinosaurs are real? I would imagine so at least, I apologize if you would not. However, it should serve as a fitting example anyway.
Have you ever seen a dinosaur? I'm sure you have seen their bones and fossils. I do not believe they were real. Most people would call me extremely ignorant for that with all the "proof" of their existence.
I have seen bones. They could have been placed there any number of ways, not that I believe them to be placed by man.
I see life as a test. A test of who will stay loyal to God. A test to see who can give up their pride and selfishness and even after every test, have the sight and wisdom that God is real and is also our savior. As such, I do not by the slightest means see any reason why they could not have been placed there to try our loyalty. To see if we would take his words for true, or if we could be deceived by such. The same goes for evolution. I have never seen a monkey turn to a human. I have seen humans adapt, but they have stayed human. If monkies of any form (prime apes or whatever you may wish) did evolve into humans, why has no man in the hundreds of years documented seeing any of these changes in the slightest other than the adaptation? I believe it is a test to see who is loyal, and who is not. Some may ask and say I have not seen God, so why believe in him. But I have seen much more of God and heard his voice countless times more than anything any information about evolution could ever compare.
As for God being perfect, a friend of mine once had the same question. I was unable to answer, and he went to ask a preacher. I do not remember the exact words, but it boiled down to God is not perfect, and there are reasons stating why in The Bible. One being that he created man in his image, which should be proof enough considering man is not perfect in the slightest.
@PigBoss for your opening statement you are correct that there is no "proof" of any of it, if you take proof in it's absolute most literal form. In which I will answer you that nothing is absolute or "proven." Nothing. At all. Scientists have "proven" things before just to later find out it was the furthest thing from proof. The closest thing to being proved is that you exist. Be it in the reality you think you are, or in someone's imagination, or in some simulator, you exist. Somewhere.
The reason I take the miracles I have seen and experienced as an actual miracle rather than coincidence or chance is because they are either something so rare, or even something unimaginable, that the "chance" of being a chance is far more unlikely than the possibility of it being a miracle -- A fast example is a dear old friend of mine. She had a disease of a sort ( I don't recall the name and also am no longer in contact with her, so I will leave it up for you to decide if this is some BS story to help prove my point, though I would at least ask for the courtesy for the likelyhood of it to be taken into consideration) She went to several doctors and they all told her the same thing,about her chances of living being slim to none. And that none ever had before. Not a single person with it. But, she was a strong believer, and she eventually overcame it. If you are sincere in understanding this and would wish to speak with her about her story, I will more than gladly help you get in contact with her to ask her yourself. The other reason I see them as miracles, more so than merely chance, is when and why they seem to happen. Because the miracles only come when they are needed. I have yet to see something miraculous happen in a moment it has no place. Also, do you have any respect for detectives? I personally do, and I've heard one of their mottos to be something along the line, " Detectives do not believe in mere chance " (I believe that they even said that in a batman movie but I am not positive on that, not that being in a batman movie makes it true, but I see it as a good saying)
As for the 2870 question, I am a bit puzzled the mere question itself as I do not see God as a mere event. If you mean to say there are 2870 divine creatures that people as a whole believe in world wide, when combined and all mixed together, I cannot give you mathematical answers. However, I can say this: If so much has happened as to make people believe in so many beings world wide that are of a divine power then I should think it be obvious, considering how many "coincidences" or "chances" that may have occured to make people believe this constant idea of a divine being through out the world. Keeping in mind those are only ones noted in history. Do you believe everything is documented in history?
As for does God have matter, I regret to admit I am no scholar, nor read my Bible as often I should. Although, I will say this. Heaven is described as being an unimaginable place, beyond any person's wildest dreams. That being said, I feel God is also something we cannot imagine up. God may be matter, or may be something more than matter. A matter more real than that of what we see as matter but do not imagine of in.
I do not personally have beliefs that God is all matter and lives in everything, however, I do see reason how some could see it as such.
Definitely. I've seen too much to not believe in God. Miracles at their finest that only God could produce. It's naive to believe so much could just fall together without a more divine power beyond our understanding to say the least, and when people say they do not believe in God because of hardships they have gone through it makes me sick that they don't have even the slightest understanding. There have been plenty of people that claim they have done things in the name of God that I do not agree with, and but those people are not God regardless if they claim their actions for such.
Also, in a simplistic view that I'm sure many may not understand, if you don't believe in God what do you believe in? Nothing? Science? Well, either way. . . If you do not believe in a more divine power how do you explain our creation in the slightest? You mean to say we evolved, well, if you want to argue that go right ahead. However, where did what we evolved came from? Oh? The Big Bang? Or w/e nonsense, it all boils down to this --- Where did what come from? Eventually it boils down to something had to be here forever. Now, either way you can say the Universe and particles or some sort of BS have been around forever. But think for a second, can you comprehend that? That particles were around forever. Where did those particles come from? No where?
Man, or rather, science, seems to think there is an answer for everything. That you can come to a logical conclusion the entire way, when in fact, at least the way they are currently doing it (by asking where what came from aka -- Humans = Monkies = Some sort of fish organism = particles, etc) you eventually arrive at a conclusion that makes absolutely no sense.
The only reasonable explanation is a power that we can not comprehend. A power or being far beyond our understanding that can have really been around forever to make everything happen and fall in place as it such has. A power or being that of which is divine.
So yes, I very much so believe in God. Countless times has it been proven to me through my very eyes through the events that have shaped me.
Also, one last joke that I feel might be somewhat appropriate for this topic. (Forgive me if it's not exactly the same it may really be, but I feel it gives the general idea)
A man was stranded at sea. A sailor on a ship came by and asked the man, "Do you need help? Why not hop on board?" The man replied, "No thanks. God will save me." Later on, some people on a cruise stumble upon the guy and ask, "You there! Shall I call the captain to bring you on board? You look like you're in quite the predicament!" He replied, "No thank you. God will save me." Finally, after getting weary, a helicopter spots the man and goes down to help. The man replies, "Thank you, but God will save me" and refused to go with them. Finally, the man drowned, and asked, "God, why didn't you come to save me when I was drowning?" God replied, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter."
I vote for @Ecstasy for queen!
I have to agree a bit that this would help. One thing I've noticed is that as we "progress" and move forward in life, people are getting on with their lives later and later. It used to be extremely young, then it became to about sixteen or eighteenish. While plenty of people still do by those ages, I feel overall people are getting started much later. Now it's not just even twenty years old, but I see many people get started as late as twenty-two.
I think if children worked a little more, as you said perhaps thrown in with their education, that they would be able to get started in life much earlier and have an actual feel on how the real world works. I think this is definitely needed for our civilizations to progress rather than decline, which I feel is the direction we have been going.
aww man, I got a kick out of this. Feels nice knowing he had some fun with it, too.
@Ecstasy and Ethereal ! Bwahahaha. Ecstasy's the best tsundere <3